Discussion:
Libya no longer Arab!
(too old to reply)
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-27 23:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Now if the rest of them can do the same and those more clearly black Africans can get a back bone.


http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/822.cfm
Eugene Kent
2003-10-28 01:53:10 UTC
Permalink
You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Libya is not Hollywood where a director can cut and paste.

"Jason Murray - The Great One" <***@MYAZZ.com> wrote in message news:Zthnb.11790$***@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Now if the rest of them can do the same and those more clearly black
Africans can get a back bone.


http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/822.cfm
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-28 05:01:04 UTC
Permalink
What the hell are you talking about?
Post by Eugene Kent
You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Libya is not Hollywood where a director can cut and paste.
Now if the rest of them can do the same and those more clearly black
Africans can get a back bone.
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/822.cfm
Eugene Kent
2003-10-28 18:14:59 UTC
Permalink
It wouldn't accomplish any thing if I tried to explain what Arabism is.
Your too narrow minded and bigoted to see beyond your rose color red neck
glasses.
Go back scaring kiddies with your bed sheet.
Post by Jason Murray - The Great One
What the hell are you talking about?
Post by Eugene Kent
You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Libya is not Hollywood where a director can cut and paste.
Now if the rest of them can do the same and those more clearly black
Africans can get a back bone.
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/822.cfm
FANTIMA
2003-10-28 08:19:01 UTC
Permalink
To be honest,most countries like Morocco,Egypt,and Libya have never
been Arab. All these people are just Arabs by culture. Many Amazigh in
Libya donot consider themselves Arabs;just like pre-Nasserite
Egyptians did not consider themselves Arabs. I am an Egyptian living
in America,and I donot consider myself an Arab,because I know my
history very well.
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-28 16:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by FANTIMA
To be honest,most countries like Morocco,Egypt,and Libya have never
been Arab. All these people are just Arabs by culture. Many Amazigh in
Libya donot consider themselves Arabs;just like pre-Nasserite
Egyptians did not consider themselves Arabs. I am an Egyptian living
in America,and I donot consider myself an Arab,because I know my
history very well.
That may be true, but an identity is what people go by. If they were once
in an Arab League, that is what people saw them as. The same reason why
many countries join an Arab League to begin with - they are trying to tell
the world and neighboring countries what they want to be known as.

The Egyptian thing is kind of crazy though. Before Nasser, Egypt was
basically Turkish. Before them, Arabic. So are you saying that you are a
Turk? When it comes to finding out who is a true Egyptian follow this rule,
the darker the truer. The lighter, the more false. The same holds true for
African-Americans.

Oh yeah, countries outside of Africa are only Arabs by culture also. Iraq
is an example. Maybe all Arabs are Arabs by culture as no one can seem to
identify an Arab phenotype.
Eugene Kent
2003-10-28 18:41:19 UTC
Permalink
These people are just stupid.
That is like saying that because I live in Ohio I don't consider myself
American.
All Egyptians speak Arabic as their first language, all foods and
architecture is of Arabic origin and the religion that 85% of all Egyptians
practice is Islamic.
When you say Arab you really are implying the Peoples of the Middle East.
Just as in America all citizens are called Americans.
Khadafy is just a ass licking Libyan Bedouin.
In fact Khadafy looks a lot like a Ethiopian who ancestors served in the
Roman Legions that were station in Libya.And his mother was probably a camp
whore.
Post by Jason Murray - The Great One
Post by FANTIMA
To be honest,most countries like Morocco,Egypt,and Libya have never
been Arab. All these people are just Arabs by culture. Many Amazigh in
Libya donot consider themselves Arabs;just like pre-Nasserite
Egyptians did not consider themselves Arabs. I am an Egyptian living
in America,and I donot consider myself an Arab,because I know my
history very well.
That may be true, but an identity is what people go by. If they were once
in an Arab League, that is what people saw them as. The same reason why
many countries join an Arab League to begin with - they are trying to tell
the world and neighboring countries what they want to be known as.
The Egyptian thing is kind of crazy though. Before Nasser, Egypt was
basically Turkish. Before them, Arabic. So are you saying that you are a
Turk? When it comes to finding out who is a true Egyptian follow this rule,
the darker the truer. The lighter, the more false. The same holds true for
African-Americans.
Oh yeah, countries outside of Africa are only Arabs by culture also. Iraq
is an example. Maybe all Arabs are Arabs by culture as no one can seem to
identify an Arab phenotype.
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-29 01:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Kent
These people are just stupid.
That is like saying that because I live in Ohio I don't consider myself
American.
All Egyptians speak Arabic as their first language, all foods and
architecture is of Arabic origin
no it's not. Most architecture is of ancient African and European origins.

and the religion that 85% of all Egyptians
Post by Eugene Kent
practice is Islamic.
When you say Arab you really are implying the Peoples of the Middle East.
Are they?
Post by Eugene Kent
Just as in America all citizens are called Americans.
No. Some are called black , hispanic, native or Asian.
Post by Eugene Kent
Khadafy is just a ass licking Libyan Bedouin.
Sounds personal.
Post by Eugene Kent
In fact Khadafy looks a lot like a Ethiopian who ancestors served in the
Roman Legions that were station in Libya.And his mother was probably a camp
whore.
As are most north Africans.
Eugene Kent
2003-10-28 18:21:26 UTC
Permalink
You may have been born in Egypt but you started out speaking Arabic.
The old copic bastard languish that was spoken which was part Pharos and
part Greek was ended with the conquest of Mirs by the Arabs.
Egypt is a Greek invented word.
The people of the black land never called themselves Egyptians.
Post by FANTIMA
To be honest,most countries like Morocco,Egypt,and Libya have never
been Arab. All these people are just Arabs by culture. Many Amazigh in
Libya donot consider themselves Arabs;just like pre-Nasserite
Egyptians did not consider themselves Arabs. I am an Egyptian living
in America,and I donot consider myself an Arab,because I know my
history very well.
FANTIMA
2003-10-29 02:16:20 UTC
Permalink
''That is like saying that because I live in Ohio I don't consider
myself American. All Egyptians speak Arabic as their first language,
''

Egyptian colloquial Arabic contains over 10,00 words from ancient
Egyptian,and it is quite different than standard Arabic. Much of the
Saidi dialect in Egyptian colloquial Arabic is very sdimilar to Sahdic
Coptic. Even Cairene Egyptians often misunderstand Sa3eadi Egyptians.
Learn a little about Egypt before you speak.


From the most distant past to the modern day, some things never
change-including words. The modern Egyptian Arabic dialect is one of
the most distinctive in the Arabic-speaking world precisely because of
its illustrious heritage from the country's ancient past. Ahmad
Abdel-Hamid Youssef spends a day in the Egyptian countryside, taking
note of the many expressions that once fell from the lips of the
ancient Egyptians and that continue to be heard on the tongues of the
modern Egyptians in their everyday speech. His charming tale of
Bayoumi, a farmer, his wife Sawsan, and their baby provides the
backdrop for tracing the persistence of these words and phrases. What
these average Egyptians do, what tools they use, what they eat, how
they organize their life, even how they interact-all can be described
with words that hark back to the age of the pharaohs.


http://www.aucpress.com/cgi-aucpress/auc99/pager.cgi?catno=708_6

'', all foods and architecture is of Arabic origin and the religio''


Actually most staple foods of Egyptians are Turkish in origin,but some
like Ful Ghadames is an authenic Egyptian dish. Ayish Baladi is also
an Egyptian speciality. Falafel,an Arabic staple, was developed by
Coptic Christains;thus Falafel is not Arabic,but Egyptian.


Both Claudia Roden in The New Book of Middle Eastern Food and Anissa
Helou in Mediterranean Street Food give recipes for falafel and some
background on the dish, as well as variations.

Roden says, "This is one of Egypt's national dishes.... The Christian
Copts, who are said to be pure descendants of the ancient Egyptians,
claim this dish as their own.... During Coptic religious festivals,
and particularly during Lent, when they are not allowed to eat meat
for many weeks, every Coptic family produces mountains of ta'amia
[called "falafel" in Alexandria].... Ta'amia are patties or rissoles
made from large dried fava bean (ful nabed), which look white because
they are sold skinless."

Variations, according to Roden, include: dipping the ta'amia in sesame
seeds before frying them; mixing small amount of yeast dissolved in
water into the paste and then letting it rest for an hour before
cooking to give a lighter rissole; adding finely chopped parsley,
scallions, crushed garlic, ground cumin, cayenne, coriander to a
"ready mix"; she also says, "In Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, falafel
are made with a mix of chickpeas and fava beans, and in Israel ... it
is made with chickpeas alone."

Helou says that the "Egyptian ta'miyah is rather different from the
Lebanese/Syrian falafel, softer and starchier. The sandwiches are also
made differently. Egyptian pita is smaller and thicker, and when made
with coarsely ground whole wheat, it is called aysh baladi. The bread
is cut crosswise in half, and the pocket opened and filled with the
ta'miyah and garnish. Lebanese/Syrian pita ... is large, round, and
very thin. It is opened at the seam, and the two layers are placed one
on top of the other with the rough side up. The filling is then
arranged down the middle and the bread rolled around it. As for the
garnish, in Egypt you can have potato chips or French fries, shredded
lettuce or tomatoes, radishes or pickles. In Lebanon/Syria the choice
is generally herbs, tomatoes, and pickles. Only the tahini sauce is a
constant in both countries, although the name differs: tahina in Egypt
and tarator in Lebanon."



Egyptians that live in rual areas in Said[Upper Egypt] still construct
their houses like in antiquity. Actually,most Egyptian architecture in
the city is more Italian than Arabic. Islamic architecture was
different for each region that the invading Arabs invaded,because the
Arabs never had a traditional architectural culture. You might be
suprised,but many of the Coptics[common name for all Egyptians by
Arabs] built many of the mosques in Egypt,as well as many in Jerusalem
and Damascus. Even a Coptic[Egyptian] rebuilt the Kaaba in Makkah.


As far as relgion,many modern Egyptians pratice a form of
sychrinzed verisons of more ancient pharoanic relgion. This is well
documented in various sufi traditions such the moulid festivals held
each year. Baladi Egyptians still use amulets,visit shrines,and visit
their dead ancestors and make food offerings for them like the
ancient Egyptians did. None of these customs exist any where in the
Arab world except for Egypt !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Egyptians spend more time at cemetaries than most Middle Easteners.
Some baladi women sleep at the cemetary to pray dawn prayer at the
family gave
Page 113
Baladi Women of Cairo
Evelyn E Early
________ancient Egyptian custom !!!!!!!!


An interesting local influence is the apperance of the small shawbti
statues[placed in a pharoah's tomb to serve him each day of the year]
in the pilgramige house paitinings near phaoranic sites
page 115
Baladi Women of Cairo
Evelyn A Early
_________ancient Egyptian custom



One day at a village shrine,her daughter-in-law's mother inquired
about a fertility amulet for her daughter
page 46
Baladi Women of Cairo
Evenlyn A early
___________________________-ancient Egyptian custom !!!!!!!




The Baladi women from Cairo Bulaq that have migrated from the
Delta[Northern] or Upper Egypt[Southern Egypt] within the past thrity
years. The few long term residents live similar lives and often have
rual relatives
Page 4
Evelyn A Early
Baladi Women of Cairo


_______________rual Upper Egyptians who migrate to Cairo and live in
Bulaq Abu Ala

http://www.aucpress.com/cgi-aucpress/auc99/pager.cgi?catno=558_X

book reference about pharoanic survials amungst rual Upper Egyptian
Falaheen. This book is out of print,but you will find it via through
interlibrary loan




''....In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at
the
lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued
with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin. Although
orthodox Islam is well grounded in urban areas, the countryside is
the domain of a rich folk-religion, replete with beliefs in the
magical, miraculous and occult.(n31)...''


''....In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at
the
lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued
with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin. Although
orthodox Islam is well grounded in urban areas, the countryside is
the domain of a rich folk-religion, replete with beliefs in the
magical, miraculous and occult.(n31)....''

n31.) See Winifred S. Blackman, The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, London:
Frank Cass & Co., 1968), pp. 183-200




''.....Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost
governorates.
As is tree of Chiapas, the region's history is one of isolated
removal from the center of national life. The local relationships
resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an
identity of its own within the modem Egyptian state. Alongside the
even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the
Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two
groups, the ashraf and the arab, in dominating positions. These were
followed by lesser tribes, with the fellah at the bottom of the
social scale.(n28) Southerners came to be stereotyped negatively in
the rest of the country, widely held to be crude, prone to violence
and lacking intelligence.
The authority of central governments in Upper Egypt was cemented
through clientelist ties with leading families of the ashraf and arab
groups. Even the Nasserist regime did not substantially undermine
this political-administrative arrangement. Although land reform
benefited peasant farmers to a degree, members of the landed classes
used a variety of means to retain much of their holdings. Cairo
continued to staff the higher ranks of the local police and security
apparatus with personnel from the ashraf and arabs.(n29)
Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society.
The ashraf claimed direct descent from the Prophet, while the arabs
traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other
hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they
descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to
Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the ashraf
and arabs.(n30) Copts have occupied an ambivalent position in the
social scale; as Christians they are considered inferior to Muslims
but their individual status effectively depends on more material
criteria......'''







http://www.iupui.edu/~anthkb/a104/egypt/conflictegyptmex.htm


The Mosque of Abu'l Hagag in the Temple of Luxor. The Islamic mosque
is located over the First Court and adjoins the eastern wall of the
Temple of Luxor. It was built in medieval times above the walls of an
ancient Christian basilica located inside the temple courtyard. When
the mosque was erected, the derelict temple was already filled with a
high mound of soil and debris. That mound was later excavated, leaving
the mosque and its doorway standing high above the courtyard on the
church's foundations. A new door and a stairway were built on the east
side (shown here). The mosque is dedicated to Abu'l Hagag, the Muslim
saint who reputedly converted Upper Egypt to Islam. The mud-brick
minaret on the right dates to the eighth century A.D., while the other
minaret is much later. To this day, the Muslims of Luxor celebrate the
annual festival of Abu'l Hagag with processions and boat-haulings that
descend directly from the ancient Festival of Opet connected with
Luxor Temple. (Caption - Peter Piccione


http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/TVE_TPP/0981_3.html



Upper Egyptians were able to keep so many customs because of their
isolation from the rest of the city dwellers.



While the villages live on in their enclosed world,almost untouched by
the influence of Islam,the cities were the product of the great
medevil Islamic civlization which was essentially urban. The city
dwellers depised the Fellahin and had almost no contact with them
excepot in the purchase of their crops. It is no exgeration to say
that the citzens of Cairo felt more in common with the inhabitants
felt more in common with the inhabitants of Damacus or Bagdad than he
did with a Egyptian fellahin. All the Arabic litterature of the period
belongs to the cities and provides no insight of the country side.
Page 100
The Arab World: A Comprehensive History
by Peter Mansfield




Of course more rual Egyptians have been moving to the North since
around the 1950's


Despite the marked growth of several cities,especially Cairo,Egyptian
social structure retains village roots more than the urban migration
would indicate. Increasing hundreads of thousands of landless and
displaced fellahin have flooded into cities since the 1950's,often
grouping themselves by place of origin and thus preserving their
village idenity. Indeed,this kind of urbanization,the virtual
displacement of village to city has been reffered to as the relization
of Cairo''Incoming migrants typically have little education,almost no
money,and no relavent skills.
page 449

Middle East Patterns: Places, Peoples, and Politics
by Colbert C. Held




___More to come
FANTIMA
2003-10-29 06:30:50 UTC
Permalink
''You may have been born in Egypt but you started out speaking Arabic.
''

Actually,Egyptian colloquial Arabic is not like other Arabic speakers.
Although a Gulf Arab can fully understand Egyptian colloquial Arabic
some of the words in the language are clearly derived from ancient
Egyptian words. A new book explores the ancient Egyptian words that
exist in Egyptian colloquial Arabic,and it is cearly words that are
used on a everyday basis like


".....7,000 words in current Egyptian usage are in fact ancient
Egyptian in origin. These are words that people use everyday without
consciously questioning their origins, they have become part of
Egyptian 'ammiya (colloquial) Arabic.
Many place names are ancient Egyptian in origin, and very often they
have meaningful connotations. Shubra means farm; Shubra Khit is the
northern farm while Shubra Mant is the western farm; Aswan comes from
swain or market, named after the market held there for merchants from
the south and Ethiopia. Qena means embrace, and the city was thus
named
because the Nile turns in a half circle -- like an embrace -- at this
spot! Many cities were named after ancient Egyptian deities like
Damanhour, city of the god Horus, Ahnasia, the seat of the child
Horus,
Tal Basta in Sharqiya, named after the cat-god Bessa (in fact, many
Egyptians still call cats "bissa.")
Similarly, many first names -- especially ones that are favourites
among Copts -- are ancient Egyptian. Take Bayoumi, meaning "of the
sea:" the name comes from Fayoum, which means lake; Wanis comes from
Onas, meaning the truly existing; Bisa comes from the goddess Isis;
while Bishay is feast.
In addition, many words that we use daily -- and are considered vulgar
or common by many -- are also ancient Egyptian in origin. These
include
lakkaka for someone who talks too much without use; fashush, meaning
empty, yibalbat, meaning to wade in water, bahh, meaning finished;
kani
mani, meaning butter and honey; and layis, meaning caught in mud.
Also,
fangari is someone who wastes money, himm means hurry up, and malqaf
means draught. The ancient Egyptian way of life persists nowhere as it
does among peasants, especially in regulating the agricultural cycles.
Despite the meteorological changes and developments in irrigation and
planting patterns, the Egyptian agricultural calendar retains many of
its ancient characteristics. This is particularly evident in the names
of Coptic months, still in use by peasants. Egyptian farmers have
inherited sayings that define each month according to its weather and
agricultural characteristics."



From the most distant past to the modern day, some things never
change-including words. The modern Egyptian Arabic dialect is one of
the most distinctive in the Arabic-speaking world precisely because of
its illustrious heritage from the country's ancient past. Ahmad
Abdel-Hamid Youssef spends a day in the Egyptian countryside, taking
note of the many expressions that once fell from the lips of the
ancient Egyptians and that continue to be heard on the tongues of the
modern Egyptians in their everyday speech. His charming tale of
Bayoumi, a farmer, his wife Sawsan, and their baby provides the
backdrop for tracing the persistence of these words and phrases. What
these average Egyptians do, what tools they use, what they eat, how
they organize their life, even how they interact-all can be described
with words that hark back to the age of the pharaohs.

http://www.aucpress.com/cgi-aucpress/auc99/pager.cgi?catno=708_6



On the examination of the vocabulary used in the vulgar Arabic of
Egypt one is struck by the great number of words which can be easily
traced to an Ancient Egyptian or Coptic origin. These words are much
commoner in the dialects of Upper Egypt than in those of Cairo and
Lower Egypt. Again, the expression and the turn of the phrases used in
Upper Egypt can sometimes be literally translated into Coptic without
its being necessary to make in Coptic any grammatical changes in the
relative position of the different members of the phrase. For
instance, the curious correspondence of the pronunciation of the
different phonemes in the modern vulgar Arabic of the Sa'id with their
old values in Coptic, such as the pronunciation of the letter G,
exactly like the Coptic janja., different to its pronunciation in all
other Arabic-speaking countries. The value of a hard g given to the
Arabic letter was the same phenomenon that happened when the ancient
Egyptian language was written in Greek letters to form the Coptic
language; the same play on, and the interchange of the vowels is seen
in the different modern dialects of the vulgar Arabic as in the
different dialects of Coptic, such as the prolongation of certain
vowels in Upper Egypt when they are shortened in Cairo, or the
dropping of certain terminal letters in both dialects, betraying the
custom of doubling the vowels in Saliidic Coptic when they were only
single in Bohairic (Ouab) Boh., and (Ouaab) Sahidic. All this, in
fact, induces me to believe in the influence of Coptic on the
spokeArabic rather than vice versa as most authors hold to be the
case. Those authors believe that it was through the influence of
Arabic, that the difference between b and p was was lost in Coptic,
whereas we know from demotic, and even from the Graeco-Roman
hieroglyphic that these changes had already been affected in the
language.

http://www.coptic.org/language/georgy/common.htm


''. The old copic bastard languish that was spoken which was part
Pharos and part Greek ''

Actually the dialects of Coptic were divided into different regions
that included Sahadic[Upper
Egyptian,Luxor,Aswan,],Fayiumic,Akhmic,Memphic,and Bohairic. The
earliest church texts were all written in Sahedic which is a Upper
Egyptian dialect of Coptic. In the Delta it was combined with Greeks
and formed the Bohairic which is used know commonly in church services
in Upper Egypt.


''was ended with the conquest of Mirs by the Arabs''

Wrong again! Coptic was a common term for Egyptians that came from
the word Gebti in Upper Egypt. Arabs mispronouced the word Aegyptos to
Qubti,so they call most non-muslims[most Egyptians up to the Arabic
invasion] by the name of Qubti. Arabs knew Egypt both as Misri and
Bilad Al Qubti. Most of the Egyptian population was Christain or
aminist,and remained that way untill the heavy taxation of poll taxes
forced many Egyptian to convert to Islam. jizya tax was enforced on
everybody that was a non-Muslim.

Their conversion to Islam was a long process: according to the
geographer Al-Muqaddasi, Copts were still in the majority in the 10th
century, almost four centuries after the Moslem annexation of Egypt.

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/coptic/coptic.html



After the Arab conquest in 641 the tax system was arranged in the
favor of Muslims,which was probally an important factor in increasing
the number of Egyptians who eventually embraced Islam. Freedom of
whorship was allowed untill the persecution in the eleventh century by
Calpih Al-Hakim. Thereafter,the Coptic community dwindled :some
Christain villages perserved their idenity and Coptic was spoken as a
living language as late as the fiftenth or even sixtenth century in
Upper Egypt,but it is know used only in the Coptic church as a
liturgical language,the last surving contionous link with the language
of the Ancient Egyptians
page 101
John Ruffle The Egyptians




'' Egypt is a Greek invented word''

The word Egypt comes from the word Hikuptah that the Greeks mistook
from a Pyramid of Pepi II in Men-Nefer[memphis]


''. The people of the black land never called themselves
Egyptians.''

You are correct,because they called their land KMT or Ta-Meri,and
Upper Egypt[Ta-Shemu],or Ta-Mehu[Lower Egypt] indiviudaly they were
called Kmtjw,or Rem in Kmt.
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
2003-10-29 07:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by FANTIMA
'' Egypt is a Greek invented word''
The word Egypt comes from the word Hikuptah that the Greeks mistook
from a Pyramid of Pepi II in Men-Nefer[memphis]
No, the name came from /Hwt-kA-ptH/, the name of the Ptah temple in
Memphis, a name which first came to denote also the city area around the
temple, and finally was extended to the whole city of Memphis itself.

What you are referring to is the origin of the name, "Memphis."
/mn-nfr-ppy/, or "Pepi's beauty is enduring, " was the name of the
pyramid of Pepi I in Saqqara. In time the name was associated with the
pyramid town around it, and when this area became a suburb of Memphis,
the name, in shortened form, was used for the entire city of Memphis.
Thus, it is a loan word from ancient Egyptian, just as /Hwt-kA-ptH/
eventually evolved into "Egypt."
Post by FANTIMA
''. The people of the black land never called themselves
Egyptians.''
You are correct,because they called their land KMT or Ta-Meri,and
Upper Egypt[Ta-Shemu],or Ta-Mehu[Lower Egypt] indiviudaly they were
called Kmtjw,or Rem in Kmt.
In ancient Egyptian, /tA Smaw/ and /tA mHw/ were the respective names of
"Upper and Lower Egypt." (Hannig 2000: 921a) /tA mry/ was less used
than /kmt/, which was rendered with an occupied land determinative (O49)
(Hannig 2000: 23b), meaning it was the fertile occupied land which was
coloured black, in opposition to the desert area, which was coloured
red, /dSr.t/ and uninhabited (Hannig 2000: 275b).

Egyptians were referred to as /rmT/ and specifically as /rmT n Kmt/
(Hannig 2000: 23b). Colloquially, they were referred to as /kmt/, with
A1*B1:Z2 (multiple people) determinative, but not as /kmtyw/ (Hannig
2000: 24a).

For more on ancient Egyptian and its loan words, see the EEF website at

<http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/AEloans.html>

HTH.

Regards --


Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, ASOR, EES, SSEA

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com
FANTIMA
2003-10-29 05:46:47 UTC
Permalink
''The Egyptian thing is kind of crazy though. Before Nasser, Egypt was
basically Turkish''

Yes,the elite rulers in Egypt during this time was Ottoman Turks,and
even today a good portion of the elite are Turkish in origin,as well
as Mameluke. However,Egyptian's unique idenity still existed. The
Turks made slaves of the Fellahin and Baladi Egyptians. Egyptians
during this period knew themselves as Baladi which denoted indigenous
as opposed to the foregin rulers.

See the following:

Historicallyt,''baladi'' indicated the locals,the egyptians,as
versus
the turks,the mamelukes,the french,or the british. To be Ibna' Al
balad,sons of the country,was to defend Egypt against French and
British occupiers. Balad a noun means community-wheater
country,city,townor village;in colloquiual Egyptian it can means
downtown or village. Baladi adjective form,means local or indigenous.
Through time,balady has come to connote the local or residents and
life of urban quarters such as bulaq Abu AlaIt is a self
descprtive,emic term that can roughly be translated ''traditional''
but which also retrains a rich infusion of the local and authenic.
The early ninteenth centuiry history Abd Al Rahman al Jabarti used
ibn al balad to mean urbanite Cairene muslims who shared a dialect
and a relgion as oposed to foreign rulers who spoke arabic and
violate muslim normsJibarti detailed the mistreatment of these
Cairene theologians,merchants,and aristans by ruling elites. The
following Al jabarti references are quote in El Messiri''Some of the
troops used to buy sheep and sluaghter them,then sell them at high
price. They would give short weight and ibn al balad could nothing
but check them ""
pg 54 Baladi Women of Cairo
Evelyn A Early


''When it comes to finding out who is a true Egyptian follow this
rule, the darker the truer''

Jason,as a Egyptian,I have to strongly disagree with you on this
point. While it is certainly true that lots of mixing has occured in
Egypt from the Ptolmeic period,Arabic invasion,and from the trickle of
Turkish and Mamelukes into places like Cairo. However,the Egyptian
population has always been diverse with various phenotypes in the
nation of Egypt,and even cultural differences were recoded between
different regions of Egypt.

The Northern region known as Lower Egypt was inhabaited by Coastal
type Northern Africans and other Near Easterner types that mixed with
this population;in Contrast the Southern Egyptian portion was
inhabited by tropical African types that were without a doubt black.
Understand that modern and ancient Egyptians no matter what their skin
tone never descriminated against each other,for there was never the
type of racism in ancient Egypt like in modern America. The hair
texture of Upper Egyptians ranges from kinky to wavy thick hair.
This includes both the Coptic and Muslim population pointed out by an
Egyptologist who used to post on this user group named Frank Joseph
Yurco


''.....Finally, the posters have lurched into the truth on the issue
of who the ancient Egyptians were. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and
Muslims alike are dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy
to kinky. Certainly, in the ante-bellum American South, they would
have been classed with the other Africans who were enslaved. That
ante-bellum southern image is still common in the United States, where
if you have any African ancestors you are classed as "b;ack". Yet, how
screwed up the Americans are is evident by how the census bureau deals
with Egyptians who migrate to the United States. They are classed as
"white" no matter how brown they appear!!!
Most sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago -- Frank Joseph
Yurco ***@midway.uchicago.edu...''


Here is a descirption of diversity that has existed in Egypt since
antiquity:

Yes, Egyptologists do consider the ethnicity of the Egyptians, but in
a rational way without the flaming that is seen in many postings in
this issue. To the Egyptian who considered any dark complexioned
Egyptians as descendants of Nubians or Sudanese, have you ever
travelled from Luxor to Aswan? There the entire population is dark
brown in complexion. Yet can you write them all off as descendants of
Sudanese? Hardly. They are Egyptians and that they have been that
complexion for thousands of years is demonstrated by New Kingdom
paintings of the Theban population, then just as dark brown as now,
for instance, in Sennedjem's tomb at Deir el-Medinah. So, what we have
is a very diverse population in Egypt, light complexioned in the
north, and gradually darkening as you proceed south. Another myth that
needs exploding is that all Copts are light complexioned. Ever meet a
Copt from Luxor or Aswan? They are as brown as the rest of the
population there. I lived three years in Luxor and have travelled
extensively in Egypt, so I speak from experience. Again, surveying the
ancient monuments can be instrutive. So, for instance, the statue of
Sheikh el-Beled, or Ka-Aper, as he was known anciently, looks exactly
like the people of Saqqara today
Most sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago -- Frank Joseph
Yurco ***@midway.uchicago.edu

more description of Upper Egyptians


Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African
negro
blood, he [Shahhat] looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most of the
men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had strong
cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged faces,
Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
The reader might conclude from such a description that Critchfield's
initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his features
were much less African than those of the majority of Upper Egyptians.
Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of northern
Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs, and
consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice is the
second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to poverty:
racism.
Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent racial
implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an Egyptian is
an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and diversity
of rural Egyptian life.
Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American Educational Trust
specializing in Islamic affairs.
Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available from the
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm




That is why I stated
earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the
First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in
Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in
those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.

So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might
be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with
Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and
reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of
Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago
--
Frank Joseph Yurco
***@midway.uchicago.edu





''Oh yeah, countries outside of Africa are only Arabs by culture also.
Iraq is an example. Maybe all Arabs are Arabs by culture as no one can
seem to identify an Arab phenotype''

Jason,the original Arabs comes from Yemen. Iraq still have people
there called MArsh Arabs or Ma'dan that live like the ancient
Mesopotamians;unofortunatley Sadam drained their marshes,and many know
live in Iran.


Egyptians differ themselves from Arabs such as Syrians by calling
them Shamy. Even Nasser was not full Egyptian,because his father came
from Hijaz and settled in Upper Egypt,and he was distinguished by his
unique nose that was different from many Egyptians. However,Egyptians
accepted Nasser as one of their own because he had much respect for
the Fellahin elvating the common Baladi Egyptian up to a level that
Turkish rule was forced over them.
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-30 07:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by FANTIMA
''The Egyptian thing is kind of crazy though. Before Nasser, Egypt was
basically Turkish''
Yes,the elite rulers in Egypt during this time was Ottoman Turks,and
even today a good portion of the elite are Turkish in origin,as well
as Mameluke. However,Egyptian's unique idenity still existed. The
Turks made slaves of the Fellahin and Baladi Egyptians. Egyptians
during this period knew themselves as Baladi which denoted indigenous
as opposed to the foregin rulers.
Historicallyt,''baladi'' indicated the locals,the egyptians,as
versus
the turks,the mamelukes,the french,or the british. To be Ibna' Al
balad,sons of the country,was to defend Egypt against French and
British occupiers. Balad a noun means community-wheater
country,city,townor village;in colloquiual Egyptian it can means
downtown or village. Baladi adjective form,means local or indigenous.
Through time,balady has come to connote the local or residents and
life of urban quarters such as bulaq Abu AlaIt is a self
descprtive,emic term that can roughly be translated ''traditional''
but which also retrains a rich infusion of the local and authenic.
The early ninteenth centuiry history Abd Al Rahman al Jabarti used
ibn al balad to mean urbanite Cairene muslims who shared a dialect
and a relgion as oposed to foreign rulers who spoke arabic and
violate muslim normsJibarti detailed the mistreatment of these
Cairene theologians,merchants,and aristans by ruling elites. The
following Al jabarti references are quote in El Messiri''Some of the
troops used to buy sheep and sluaghter them,then sell them at high
price. They would give short weight and ibn al balad could nothing
but check them ""
pg 54 Baladi Women of Cairo
Evelyn A Early
''When it comes to finding out who is a true Egyptian follow this
rule, the darker the truer''
Jason,as a Egyptian,I have to strongly disagree with you on this
point. While it is certainly true that lots of mixing has occured in
Egypt from the Ptolmeic period,Arabic invasion,and from the trickle of
Turkish and Mamelukes into places like Cairo. However,the Egyptian
population has always been diverse
Not as diverse than now and no more diverse in ancient times than any other
country. Then, you saw about four types, jet black, dark brown, brown and
tan. All with varying features and hair. Now you have all types with
strong African activity being in 97% and visible in some way. The bottom
line is, the Egyptians come from the jet black Africans as do all peoples in
Eastern Africa. Mixing is how they changed appearances.

with various phenotypes in the
Post by FANTIMA
nation of Egypt,and even cultural differences were recoded between
different regions of Egypt.
I wonder why...?
Post by FANTIMA
The Northern region known as Lower Egypt was inhabaited by Coastal
type Northern Africans and other Near Easterner types that mixed with
this population;in Contrast the Southern Egyptian portion was
inhabited by tropical African types
Tropical Africans in the Sahara desert? How can that be? If they are in
the Sahara, then they are Saharan type Africans right? Any other answer
smells of BS...

that were without a doubt black.

The other are without a doubt black also. If you look at the pics on 'great
Afican-American,' you will see even more diversity with a great deal
looking all out white, but they are no doubt black. Don't go into the
American racial standards thing. It does not matter how anyone saw
themselves, it matters what they were regardless and what they would be
today if they were not who they were. Dominican are no doubt black, but
they will never say so.
Post by FANTIMA
Understand that modern and ancient Egyptians no matter what their skin
tone never descriminated against each other,for there was never the
type of racism in ancient Egypt like in modern America.
Then how come the servants and the poor are usually more clearly African in
appearance? The light-skin mulattoized ones are running the government.
That trend is repeated in the so-called colorblind so-called arab world.

The hair
Post by FANTIMA
texture of Upper Egyptians ranges from kinky to wavy thick hair.
The same can be said of the delta and Italy. The same for Puerto-Rico,
Morocco, just about anywhere where mixing took place.
FANTIMA
2003-10-30 13:14:51 UTC
Permalink
''Tropical Africans in the Sahara desert? How can that be? If they are
in the Sahara, then they are Saharan type Africans right? Any other
answer smells of BS...''

Yes,the Sahara was inhabited mostly by Tropical Africans;especially
in the Central and Southern Sahara. The desendants of the original
Saharan people are the Haratin. Most of the Haratin are negriod in
apperance. However,being that poritions of Northern Africa are
clearly black,it should be noted that not all the Northern African
regions were black. We have evidence that costal Northern African
types like Metch-Aflou,Iber-Maurasian,and other types inhabited these
regions. I also call them tropical because the Sahara used to be
like a savanna which was abundant with life. The Sahara also dried up
over a long period of time.

In the case of Egypt we have evidence of early pentriation of these
costal types in the Delta region of Egypt starting with the Merimade
culture. We also have a high consentration of Near-Eastern types
coming from Syrio-Palistine culture settling in eary pre-dyanastic
Egyptian sites in Lower Egypt. Even during later dynatic period there
are texts like the ''Instructions of Merikare'' that talk about
Asiatic migrating into the Delta region.


''The other are without a doubt black also. If you look at the pics on
'great Afican-American,' you will see even more diversity with a great
deal looking all out white, but they are no doubt black. Don't go into
the American racial standards thing. It does not matter how anyone saw
themselves, it matters what they were regardless and what they would
be today if they were not who they were. Dominican are no doubt black,
but they will never say so. ''

Egyptians are not Americans,so don't force American standards upon
us. I mentioned before that Egyptians come in all colors from dark
brown of Upper Egypt to the Medditerean apperance of the Delta region.
By American standards,many of us in America would be considered
black,but most Egyptians who post on this usergroup are from America.



''Then how come the servants and the poor are usually more clearly
African in appearance? The light-skin mulattoized ones are running the
government. That trend is repeated in the so-called colorblind
so-called arab world''

This is because much of the elite in Egypt are pre revolution Nasser
era. Lots of foreginers in Egypt have political clout,so Baladi
Egyptians are still on the bottom. This is not a matter of racist,but
a simple matter of economics and history.
Jason Murray - The Great One
2003-10-31 07:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by FANTIMA
''Tropical Africans in the Sahara desert? How can that be? If they are
in the Sahara, then they are Saharan type Africans right? Any other
answer smells of BS...''
Yes,the Sahara was inhabited mostly by Tropical Africans;especially
in the Central and Southern Sahara. The desendants of the original
Saharan people are the Haratin. Most of the Haratin are negriod in
apperance. However,being that poritions of Northern Africa are
clearly black,it should be noted that not all the Northern African
regions were black. We have evidence that costal Northern African
types like Metch-Aflou,Iber-Maurasian,and other types inhabited these
regions. I also call them tropical because the Sahara used to be
like a savanna which was abundant with life. The Sahara also dried up
over a long period of time.
Good excuse, but you don't don't call north Africans tropical. I am sure
that you mean these people have certain facial features and hair textures.
Tropical... I guess it's better than calling them black Africans. If we
used the US standard for race, all of Africa is black Africa.
Post by FANTIMA
In the case of Egypt we have evidence of early pentriation of these
costal types in the Delta region of Egypt starting with the Merimade
culture. We also have a high consentration of Near-Eastern types
coming from Syrio-Palistine culture settling in eary pre-dyanastic
Egyptian sites in Lower Egypt. Even during later dynatic period there
are texts like the ''Instructions of Merikare'' that talk about
Asiatic migrating into the Delta region.
I cannot disagree. Now they have takne the whole country and forever doomed
the African with Islam and the Arabic language.
Post by FANTIMA
''The other are without a doubt black also. If you look at the pics on
'great Afican-American,' you will see even more diversity with a great
deal looking all out white, but they are no doubt black. Don't go into
the American racial standards thing. It does not matter how anyone saw
themselves, it matters what they were regardless and what they would
be today if they were not who they were. Dominican are no doubt black,
but they will never say so. ''
Egyptians are not Americans,so don't force American standards upon
us.
Whoever runs things automatically holds the standard. Even if it is not
forced. Although the US does have reverse standards for blacks here and in
Africa.

I mentioned before that Egyptians come in all colors from dark
Post by FANTIMA
brown of Upper Egypt to the Medditerean apperance of the Delta region.
By American standards,many of us in America would be considered
black,but most Egyptians who post on this usergroup are from America.
Right. In our eyes you have been and still are black, despite the name and
relgion change. We have changed also, but we are still black even if many
of us do no tlook it.
Post by FANTIMA
''Then how come the servants and the poor are usually more clearly
African in appearance? The light-skin mulattoized ones are running the
government. That trend is repeated in the so-called colorblind
so-called arab world''
This is because much of the elite in Egypt are pre revolution Nasser
era. Lots of foreginers in Egypt have political clout,so Baladi
Egyptians are still on the bottom. This is not a matter of racist,but
a simple matter of economics and history.
I don't buy that. It is still racist. It is no coincidence either. It is
similar to mulattoes in South Africa and their attitudes towards their more
African-styled brothers.

Loading...