Discussion:
Women feel oppressed by bathing suit law
(too old to reply)
e***@rock.com
2005-09-21 03:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?

"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."

"The "drop your top" proposal made headlines in January when liberal
lawyer Lianna Johnsson's radical idea was endorsed by the Conference of
Delegates of California Bar Associations. Yet the proposal never became
a bill because no state legislator would introduce it by the
legislative deadline in late February."

Those supporting the 'Drop Your Top' idea made a mistake in encouraging
topless sunbathing. The California Legislature should neither seek to
encourage nor discourage topless sunbathing, yet they should merely set
the state law in line with natural law, appellate law, and the
principle of freedom, and make topless sunbathing legal.

No one has to go topless unless they prefer it, and there is no reason
for the State Legislature to encourage a dress code in this case. But
wherever a man may go topless, it should be legal for a woman to go
topless as well.

Any departure from natural law and fairness teaches evil and
unrighteousness. Freedom must be the foundation of our morality. We
must work towards the day when all people respect other's unalienable
right to freedom. Which includes all other unalienable rights. And if
the government does not respect these rights, then how can individuals
be expected to respect them?

The government must endeavor to be righteous, rather than merely
imposing its own subjective and faulty morality upon others.

Under regimes where women were required to wear burkas, an uncovered
face would seem naked. In all other places, an uncovered face is
considered normal. Once breasts are uncovered, bare breasts will not
seem like a big deal anymore. It's all in our minds, and anyone who
thinks that nudity is something, should consider the already exposed
parts of our bodies which give no one pause.

Nudity is good where it is appropriate. Men do not usually go into
stores shirtless, and nor should women.

Topless sunbathing legal in Central Park:
http://www.timeoutny.com/features/357/357.nude.topless.html

Conference of Delegates of California Bar Associations endorses topless
sunbathing:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200501%5CPOL20050128a.html

Campaign for Children and Families (CCF) imposes their Taliban like
morality on Californians:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?storyid=3507
The Campaign for Children and Families contends: A drop your top
proposal would "ruin family outings at public parks and beaches, harm
basic family values and public decency, and would result in very
inappropriate treatment of women and girls."
Let's examine this statement:
A drop your top proposal would:

A. "ruin family outings at public parks and beaches,"
This is not true. As we can see women sunbathe topless in Central park
all the time without ruining anything.
B."harm basic family values"
Impossible. Perhaps they would like to state what these basic family
values are. Are they values which make someone ashamed of his or her
body??
C. "and public decency,"
A value judgment
D. "and would result in very inappropriate treatment of women and
girls."
A bold faced lie. There is no reason for treatment of women and girls
to change at all. In Europe women go topless and are treated with the
proper respect anyone gives a stranger. Nudity does not change
anything.

Furthermore, clothes are merely titillating. Nudity is a good thing,
it is our natural state. The fact that sex is hidden is more likely to
induce arousal, then if it is exposed. Hiding sex and requiring
clothing makes sex into a bigger deal than it is.

Just check out some of these pictures of topless women on the beach,
and tell me if you don't think it's a good thing:
http://www.nudebeach.ws/main.html

"His disciples said: "When will you appear to us, and when will we see
you?"
Jesus said: "When you undress without being ashamed and take your
clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample
on them, then you will see the son of the Living One, and you will not
be afraid."
Dale
2005-09-21 04:18:33 UTC
Permalink
<***@rock.com> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[...]
Post by e***@rock.com
Campaign for Children and Families (CCF) imposes their Taliban like
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?storyid=3507
The Campaign for Children and Families contends: A drop your top
proposal would "ruin family outings at public parks and beaches, harm
basic family values and public decency, and would result in very
inappropriate treatment of women and girls."
A. "ruin family outings at public parks and beaches,"
B."harm basic family values"
C. "and public decency,"
I was in Denmark when the air temperature hit about 27C/80F in mid-April.
Everybody went to the beach, and most of the women went topless. Almost all
the children were naked, but girls aged 11 to 15 seemed to prefer to keep
their two piece suits.

It was nice. I have two lasting memories of that event. One was a girl, 17
or so, a real hottie. With great concentration I managed NOT to pitch a
tent.

Another was a family that had just parked their car. The kiddos were naked,
running toward the beach, and Mama was naked too, and she was big, 250
pounds maybe, very round. It was a sweet scene because she was acting goofy
trying to get Papa to loosen up. He was still in long sleeves, long pants,
and shoes, being very coy.
Post by e***@rock.com
D. "and would result in very inappropriate treatment of women and
girls."
Didn't see any evidence of that.
Vivapadrepio's personal Cthulhu
2005-09-21 06:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh!
Shit!

------------------------------------------------
"The real dichotomy in today's world is between reason and religion.
The future of civilisation rests upon how many people realise that and do something about it."

D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN

AA #2208
Mark K. Bilbo
2005-09-21 16:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh! Shit!
Burkas! Gotta do something about all them women going around like
prostitutes, brazenly showing off... ANKLES!!!!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
Mike Painter
2005-09-21 16:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to
go topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh! Shit!
Burkas! Gotta do something about all them women going around like
prostitutes, brazenly showing off... ANKLES!!!!
What's funny is that the clothes these people allow their women to go to
church in would have gotten them arrested for indecent exposure on a beach
in the days when "a glimpse of stockings, was something shocking"
The phrase "nice turn of the ankle" comes from a time when sight of an ankle
was as exciting as breasts are now.

Yet they continue to say their morality is constant.
Mark K. Bilbo
2005-09-21 16:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh! Shit!
Burkas! Gotta do something about all them women going around like
prostitutes, brazenly showing off... ANKLES!!!!
What's funny is that the clothes these people allow their women to go to
church in would have gotten them arrested for indecent exposure on a beach
in the days when "a glimpse of stockings, was something shocking" The
phrase "nice turn of the ankle" comes from a time when sight of an ankle
was as exciting as breasts are now.
Yet they continue to say their morality is constant.
Heh. I'm reminded of how my grandpa was going to deny communion to his own
daughter because of the "pants suit."

And what's this about women with short hair? The apostle Paul was *quite
clear that's done by whores!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
Robibnikoff
2005-09-21 17:14:06 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mike Painter
What's funny is that the clothes these people allow their women to go to
church in would have gotten them arrested for indecent exposure on a beach
in the days when "a glimpse of stockings, was something shocking" The
phrase "nice turn of the ankle" comes from a time when sight of an ankle
was as exciting as breasts are now.
Yet they continue to say their morality is constant.
Heh. I'm reminded of how my grandpa was going to deny communion to his own
daughter because of the "pants suit."
And what's this about women with short hair? The apostle Paul was *quite
clear that's done by whores!
HEY! I give it away to George for free! ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
stoney
2005-09-23 02:57:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:54:19 GMT, "Mike Painter"
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to
go topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh! Shit!
Burkas! Gotta do something about all them women going around like
prostitutes, brazenly showing off... ANKLES!!!!
What's funny is that the clothes these people allow their women to go to
church in would have gotten them arrested for indecent exposure on a beach
in the days when "a glimpse of stockings, was something shocking"
The phrase "nice turn of the ankle" comes from a time when sight of an ankle
was as exciting as breasts are now.
Yet they continue to say their morality is constant.
From: ***@stoney.net (stoney)
Subject: Re: Human Animals
Date: 1999/06/23
Message-ID: <***@news.meganews.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 493039347
References:
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<***@news.concentric.net>
<***@lp.airnews.net>
<joe_zawadowski-***@baa021.mc.duke.edu>
<***@lp.airnews.net>
X-Complaints-To: ***@meganews.com
X-Trace: news-02.meganews.com 930162176 21318 208.26.134.118 (23 Jun
1999 18:22:56 GMT)
Organization: MegaNews!
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1999 18:22:56 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.atheism

(Elroy Willis) wrote:

[> (Joe Zawadowski) wrote:
[>
[>>***@cyberramp.net wrote:
[>
[>>> ***@donotspam.com (Liz) wrote:
[>
[>>> >Before that, in Victorian times, women didn't have legs.
[>
[>>> Did men have nipples then?
[>
[>>Actually, as late as the 1940's, men didn't have nipples.(At least
culturally)
[>>My dad used to tell of getting fined by the police in Chicago for
[>>walking in a public park without a shirt on!

[>Doesn't surprise me really. The old-fashioned swimsuits are a real
[>hoot I think, especially the women's ones.

Check this out. It's from The Ellen Payne Oden Genealogy Library
Family Tree newspaper June/July 1999 issue.

July, 1913-Here are some news items regarding feminine apparel and the
control of how women dresses!


Much Mooted Article of Feminine Apparel Makes Its Appearance on the
Quiet Streets of this city (Moultrie, GA)...Whence it Came or Wither
It was Going or Whiom Adorned is Hidden.

Merciful Goodness! Would you believe it? It's here! No! Yes, 'tis.
It has surely come to town. The fact of the matter it is very much
here, and it is slit up one side almost to the knee. Can you believe
it? It is hard to realize, but, nevertheless, it's true.

Tripping daintily down a certain street yesterday, presumable enroute
from one depot to the other, there was one lady who had a good part of
the masculine population at her heels. She certainly drew the crowd.
Floating along on feet that tripped like they were spring cushioned,
this lady, no one seems to know her name, created a stir in the city
almost equal to the excietment of Ringling's circus. For she wore
the newest of the new styles, direct from Paris they do say. And the
hosiery-Ah, some hosiery that!

She should worry, though for she had things all her way. Not another
woman in Moultrie could put over a stunt like that, and this lady, the
few minutes she sojourned here, had her sisters faced six ways from
phoebe.

Where she came from, or where bound to, no one seems to know. But she
wore it, that same being the skin tight, slit up the side, hosiery
display, latest creation of a sun crazed woman's tailor who probably
writes verses between times.

But the split skirt has come to town anyhow, whence it came, whither
it is bound is of little importance. It is not here to stay. We
should wonder.

-----

And from Atlanta, Georgia. July 31....

SLIT SKIRT CREATES BIG SENSATION HERE

A handsome young woman created considerable sensatation this morning
by strolling down Peachtree Street with a skirt slit not only to her
knee, but fully ten inches higher. In fact it was slit about as high
as the one Gertrude Hoffman wore in the Salome dance, and the effect
from a distance was something startling.

However, the costume wasn't quite as scandalous as it sounded, for
beneath the slit skirt was another skirtlike garment of pale,
diaphanous silk, thin to a degree, but not transparent.

Daring as the costume was, the young woman was subjected to no worse
attention than many stares and some occasional smiles.

-----

But the most incredible note came from Peoria, Illl, August 27th...

THINK SLIT SKIRT IS INSANITY SIGN...

Miss Edna Kay, 22 years old, who created great excitement as she
promenaded the city dressed in clothes of the latest cut and design,
including a slit skirt, through the thoroughfares of the extreme
variety was sent to an asylum.

Crowds of old and young men followed and looked as she made her way
down Adams Street until she was arrested by a policeman. She was put
in jail and later turned over to Judge Stone for a hearing. After
hearing the evidence the judge decided to send the woman to the
Bartonville Insane asylum for treatment.

/end

Interesting. I wonder what Judge Stone's reaction would be to a
textile beach much less a nude one... :)

Stoney
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
Robibnikoff
2005-09-21 17:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh! Shit!
Burkas! Gotta do something about all them women going around like
prostitutes, brazenly showing off... ANKLES!!!!
Aw c'mon! That's where I have my best tattoos! ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
f***@hotmail.com
2005-09-21 16:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vivapadrepio's personal Cthulhu
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh!
Shit!
I'm amazed to find a topic on which California is more conservative
than New York. In New York State, a woman can legally be topless
anywhere a man can do so.
--
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
z***@knowshpamatyahoo.com
2005-09-21 16:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Vivapadrepio's personal Cthulhu
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
Whatever next? Better read that book of Genesis and find out. Oh!
Shit!
I'm amazed to find a topic on which California is more conservative
than New York. In New York State, a woman can legally be topless
anywhere a man can do so.
Yeah, but that only applies to mob hits.
--
zamboni #2139

BAAWA Assistant to the Vice-Administrator of Malevolence
EAC Tertiary Adjunct to the Dispenser of Obfuscation.
Jenny6833A
2005-09-21 17:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I'm amazed to find a topic on which California is more conservative
than New York. In New York State, a woman can legally be topless
anywhere a man can do so.
But, in some areas of NY State, not without substantial harassment and
expense.

Source:
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/weird_news/12688402...


Topless women take on nudity law

Associated Press
September 19, 2005

MORAVIA, N.Y. - Four women arrested after going topless on a downtown
street last month say they didn't break any laws and want the charges
against them dropped.

The women, each charged with exposure, are to appear Tuesday night in
village court. If convicted of the violation they each face 15 days in
jail and/or a $250 fine.

Charles Marangola, the attorney representing the women, said he's
filed a motion to dismiss the case, maintaining that a 1992 state
Court of Appeals decision allows women to go topless anywhere a man
can.

"This thing should be dismissed outright," he said. "But if it isn't
and these young ladies are found guilty at a trial ... if we have to
go to the Court of Appeals, we will."

But Cayuga County Assistant District Attorney Charles Thomas said his
office isn't convinced that the 1992 ruling gives blanket permission
for women to go topless. Thomas said that in addition to the nudity
violation, he'll argue that the women interfered with commerce.

The four women - Carol Clarke, 54, and Barbara Crumb, 61, both of
Branchport; Claudia Kellersch, 40, of La Jolla, Calif.; and Madeleine
McPherson, 40, of Rochester - were arrested Aug. 11 outside a grocery
store in this village of 1,600 just south of Owasco Lake, 40 miles
southwest of Syracuse.

-----------
Post by f***@hotmail.com
--
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
:-)

Jenny
Terry Cross
2005-09-21 17:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I'm amazed to find a topic on which California is more conservative
than New York. In New York State, a woman can legally be topless
anywhere a man can do so.
But, in some areas of NY State, not without substantial harassment and
expense.
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/weird_news/12688402...
Topless women take on nudity law
Associated Press
September 19, 2005
MORAVIA, N.Y. - Four women arrested after going topless on a downtown
street last month say they didn't break any laws and want the charges
against them dropped.
The women, each charged with exposure, are to appear Tuesday night in
village court. If convicted of the violation they each face 15 days in
jail and/or a $250 fine.
Charles Marangola, the attorney representing the women, said he's
filed a motion to dismiss the case, maintaining that a 1992 state
Court of Appeals decision allows women to go topless anywhere a man
can.
"This thing should be dismissed outright," he said. "But if it isn't
and these young ladies are found guilty at a trial ... if we have to
go to the Court of Appeals, we will."
But Cayuga County Assistant District Attorney Charles Thomas said his
office isn't convinced that the 1992 ruling gives blanket permission
for women to go topless. Thomas said that in addition to the nudity
violation, he'll argue that the women interfered with commerce.
The four women - Carol Clarke, 54, and Barbara Crumb, 61, both of
Branchport; Claudia Kellersch, 40, of La Jolla, Calif.; and Madeleine
McPherson, 40, of Rochester - were arrested Aug. 11 outside a grocery
store in this village of 1,600 just south of Owasco Lake, 40 miles
southwest of Syracuse.
"Interfered with commerce" ?? It sounds as though he is trying to
raise the issue to a federal case. He might as well have said the
women were endangering the phone poles and fireplugs along the street
by distracting the attention of male drivers.

If the prosecutor's arguments are valid, they could be applied equally
well to the burqa laws. America has no grounds for laughing at other
cultures.

TCross
stoney
2005-09-23 02:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Cross
Post by Jenny6833A
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I'm amazed to find a topic on which California is more conservative
than New York. In New York State, a woman can legally be topless
anywhere a man can do so.
But, in some areas of NY State, not without substantial harassment and
expense.
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/weird_news/12688402...
Topless women take on nudity law
Associated Press
September 19, 2005
MORAVIA, N.Y. - Four women arrested after going topless on a downtown
street last month say they didn't break any laws and want the charges
against them dropped.
The women, each charged with exposure, are to appear Tuesday night in
village court. If convicted of the violation they each face 15 days in
jail and/or a $250 fine.
Charles Marangola, the attorney representing the women, said he's
filed a motion to dismiss the case, maintaining that a 1992 state
Court of Appeals decision allows women to go topless anywhere a man
can.
"This thing should be dismissed outright," he said. "But if it isn't
and these young ladies are found guilty at a trial ... if we have to
go to the Court of Appeals, we will."
But Cayuga County Assistant District Attorney Charles Thomas said his
office isn't convinced that the 1992 ruling gives blanket permission
for women to go topless. Thomas said that in addition to the nudity
violation, he'll argue that the women interfered with commerce.
The four women - Carol Clarke, 54, and Barbara Crumb, 61, both of
Branchport; Claudia Kellersch, 40, of La Jolla, Calif.; and Madeleine
McPherson, 40, of Rochester - were arrested Aug. 11 outside a grocery
store in this village of 1,600 just south of Owasco Lake, 40 miles
southwest of Syracuse.
"Interfered with commerce" ?? It sounds as though he is trying to
raise the issue to a federal case. He might as well have said the
women were endangering the phone poles and fireplugs along the street
by distracting the attention of male drivers.
If the prosecutor's arguments are valid, they could be applied equally
well to the burqa laws. America has no grounds for laughing at other
cultures.
Exactly.
Post by Terry Cross
TCross
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
Goodness Godless
2005-09-22 14:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
<snip >

But I thought California was one of 'Free States'?
stoney
2005-09-23 03:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodness Godless
Post by e***@rock.com
Is this the land of the free, or the land of oppression?
"'Drop Your Top' Idea Receives Cold Shoulder after Opposition from
Pro-Family Citizens. A radical proposal to allow women and girls to go
topless at California's public beaches and parks has failed to
materialize after loud outcry from pro-family citizens."
<snip >
But I thought California was one of 'Free States'?
The usual false advertising, just like the former USA was
"Land of the Free and Home of the Brave."
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton
2005-09-23 03:10:21 UTC
Permalink
In your melodramatic opinion...


"stoney" <***@the.net> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

: The usual false advertising, just like the former USA was
: "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave."

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